DCC+Discussions

This page is dedicated to DCC questions and issues. ( I am not sure that this belongs on a page or by discussions, someone please advise.)
 * Posted by Rabbi Rosenblum (May 1, 2007)**
 * 1) On Daf 28b in Hameiniach the Gemara states, "Bshlaima Shmuel Kshmaitsei elo Rovo leima kshmuel sevira lei," is this a Shalas Birur (I don"t think so (in the cheat sheets it's listed as a birur)) or is it kushya? If it is a Kushya, what is the kushya? (see Maharam)

Based on R' Zalman's presentation at the conference, I think it should be classified as a Shielat beirur. At this stage the gemara is just "getting all the facts down". Maybe we can say that Rava holds like Shmuel... (and then, from there, we can analyze the shitah itself...) [Noam Shapiro]
 * Posted by Rabbi Shapiro (May 8, 2007)**

I am not sure what you mean when you say "based on R. Zalman's presentation.' I do not believe his presentation has anything to do with the question. It happens to be that R. Zalman said that he consider it a kushya.
 * Posted by Rabbi Rosenblum (May 14, 2007)**

I am referring to his framework of what the gemara is "doing,"broadly speaking. What is the gemara's system of thought and analysis. At first, the gemara sifts through the information it has and just tries to clarify it and arrange it. Only then does the gemara proceed to analyze the statements. (See his sheets from the conference; I think they are on this space somewhere.) Anyways, unless I am remebering incorrectly, I am pretty sure I asked him about a smilar gemara, and he classified it as a shielat beirur. The cases might be different, or, like I said, I might be remembering incorrectly. Either way, I think you can definitely make an argument that it is a shielat beirur-, i.e,- the gemara would be saying: I am not asking any kashyas on the opinon- but i just want to know- can we say that Rava holds like Shmuel... What do you think? (Thanks for posing the question, btw, I have been wondering about lines like these)
 * Posted by Rabbi Shapiro (May 15, 2007)**

See the Mahadura Basra who brings the Rosh that the implications of the Gemora is that the Halocha is not like Shmuel. If the Halocha is not like Shmuel for sure the Halocha is not like Rav Yochanan as Keren Zoviyos is less Ones than Afeila so for sure the Halocha is not like Rab Yochanon. SInce the halocha is not like Shmuel and Rav Yochanon for sure it's not like Rav as when Shmuel ot R. Yochanon argue with Rav, Halocha is like them over Rav. It comes out that the Halocha can not be like Shmuel, R. Yochanon or Rav. Therefore the Gemora asks a kushya, Elo Rova leima Kshmuel svira lei. (see Maharam and Lechem Abirim for their explanantions.
 * Posted by Rabbi Rosenblum (May 16, 2007)**

I'm glad to see that you are relating to my presentation of "CCA" - clarification - comparison - application -order! I've been busy showing this idea to rabbis here in Israel, and I've been answered wery positivally.
 * Posted by Rabbi Salamander (May 20, 2007)**

Regarding the sheelah on Ravah: First of all - "hava uvada" - is the application-part. The gemara wants to understand which of the 4 above answers is to be halachah. Shemuel is clear - he was "mechayev" because the case happened in day-time, and he explained the mischnah relating to a case during the night. But Ravah, what is his oppinion? I've seen two explinations to this sheelah: 1: Sheelat birur: Rava - is a "batrah" and halachah should be like him. So, What is his oppinion? Like Shemuel? 2: Kushiah: It's seems that Rava "sover" like Shemuel, but how can that be? Rava should "lisbor" like Ula, who explained the Mishnah whitout an "ukimtah dechuka" but with a simply explination - "ein darkam...". And we should prefer that way of solution (please look in Rosh, masechet Shabat 9b siman 18 towards the end: "vechen nireh lerabeinu Jonah...) The answer of the gemara is: Rava is really "sover" like Ula, but his case was an "ukimta" - keren deatsrah"- a place that you are aloud to put things down, and people should watch where they put there feet!

In other words: This sugiah is a perfect "dugmah" to the "CCA"-order: "Patach bechavit vesiem bekad" - clarification-part "Emaj patur..."- comparison-part (sevarah hafucha!) "Hava uvdah..." - application-part.

Bivracha, Zalman Sallmander

I just read through this discussion. I'm not teaching this sugya but if I were, I would have benefitted from this discussion
 * (Posted by Rabbi Berman, April 10, 2008)**